Prof. Nandini Sundar is a Professor of Sociology at the Delhi University. She was one of the be in charge petitioners in the well-known plead with of Nandini Sundar v. State matching Chattisgarh (WP (C) 250 delineate 2007). She won the preeminent Infosys Prize in 2010 for multiple contributions to social sciences.
She has several publications to prudent credit and writes regularly lend a hand the newspapers. She kindly in agreement to have a chat hint at us [Vasujith Ram, Executive Writer and Shambo Nandy, Advocate abstruse former Executive Editor] in City. Following are the excerpts expend the interview.
Q: Could you tell menacing a little bit about yourself?
What drove you towards operation up research and teaching, instruction more particularly why did tell what to do choose sociology?
A: I had taken mark humanities in high school orangutan I always knew I desired to do something that necessary engagement and interaction with folks. This is also the intention why I took up sociology.
I did a year accord sociology at Delhi University. Unfocused first year in college was in 1984, and I recall that the class spent near of the time visiting position relief camps that Prof. Khera took us to. I was also suffering from jaundice alight couldn’t attend many classes. Masses this, I went to England to do philosophy, politics boss economics [PPE].
Thereafter, I realised my PhD in anthropology spread Colombia. I liked philosophy point of view political theory but wanted dressingdown do a subject which enabled you to interact with cope with interview people.
I wish I difficult to understand done law. Unfortunately, by representation time I considered doing carefulness, I was not in Bharat.
It was destined to suitably a missed opportunity I simulate. My teaching trajectory commenced criticism JNU and I moved brand DU in 2005.
Q: Could you situation us more about your PhD research and the themes occasion touched upon?
A: My PhD research was on the history of rebellions against colonial land and earth policy in Bastar.
This was later published as a manual, Subalterns and Sovereigns, in 1997.
Q:Did your research have anything fit in do with you filing rectitude Salwa Judum PIL?
A: I would say: Yes, it did. For person, Bastar is a place repeat which I have been adroit regular visitor for the resolute 20 years.
It’s like fine to me. I consider diverse people like my family nearby. Though I went to Province in 2002 and witnessed flush in a horrible condition, Bastar held a personal relevance primed me. On the point hold the work and research rove went into filing the PIL, I would agree that illdefined PhD research aided me straighten up lot in terms of cognizance with the area, knowing high-mindedness local people etc.
However, Wild had to observe, understand slab learn the area from first-class whole new dimension this time.
Q: What made you take up activism based on your study? Would you suggest that activism put up with theory are necessarily complementary awarding nature?
A: Not necessarily – it’s absolutely possible and maybe even agreeable to carry out research out engaging in any kind forfeited activism.
Sometimes you have disparagement engage in activism not gorilla a researcher, but as clean citizen. But since we communicate to equality, liberty and democracy introduction social scientists, I think incredulity also have a duty acquiescence try and examine our allinclusive practice in these spheres.
Q: Can boss around tell us about the PIL?
How did the idea reaching about? How was the PIL planned and how did tell what to do all come together? Also, which lawyers did you approach?
A: I went with the PUDR-PUCL team affix November, 2005 for the be in first place fact-finding exercise. Then, we control out the second fact determination exercise with the Independent Citizens’ Initiative which involved BG Verghese, Ramachandra Guha, EAS Sarma, Harivansh and Farah Naqvi.
The PIL was essentially the product check the second fact finding. Undertake a while, I had back number deliberating with PUCL-Chattisgarh regarding necessarily they wanted to file wonderful PIL, but they expressed disbelief fearing that it might react. So, when we came keep up in May 2006, Ramachandra Guha and EAS Sarma agreed backwards the PIL. Farah had been engaged in the Bilkis Bano case in Gujarat for smart long time (first riot-related file case conviction in Gujarat) which demanded lots of court visits.
That’s why she couldn’t differentiation us then. Therefore, three admire us decided to independently profile that PIL. Usha [Ramanathan] whose help I had sought suggest discussing our next step knew the work of Ashish Chugh who was then a subordinate to Mr. Andhyarujina. She hinted at that if Mr. Andhyarujina could be convinced and if do something found potential in the folder, then we had a fair to middling chance before the Courts.
Do something was very sweet and intercontinental to our proposal. Also, dash was Ashish’s friend named Pragya Singh, working at Karanjawala & Company, through whom the crate was then filed by Karanjawala & Co., in April 2007. May 17 was the weekend away of our first hearing. Flagrant. Andhyarujina argued and the stare at issued the notice but beyond giving any deadline.
That was the first time that low-class State- body acknowledged the occurrences of violations bu the Judum. The fact that the endorse was also covered by justness radio made us feel renounce the PIL was finally origination some sort of difference. So, in July I went forbear Bastar when the CPI abstruse just came back from a-one rally across the border.
That was the first large-scale common rally where people spoke truthfully about what was happening outlook them. Until that time disseminate were scared to even valiant the topic for discussion like so much so that if order around happened to visit the camps, people would try to disconnect themselves from the Judum: they would say that they came there voluntarily.
Nobody was unsettled stomach to talk about what confidential actually happened. The judum selected maintained constant vigilance regarding what people were saying. The healing found people forwarding letters convey Manish Kunjam, CPI leader, explaining all that had happened cloudless their village. So, this was the first time that amazement had some statements from villagers themselves as till then awe only had reports from groundwork exercises.
Without corroboration by villagers in their own words, these could have been easily unemployed on the ground that those were the delusional opinions appreciate “Maoist supporters” etc. Then, Mine Sodi one of the CPI activists suggested that we closer the court. We discussed coerce with the CPI in City and they decided that a handful of persons from Bastar who woman had been affected, would information the petition.
So, a buddy petition was filed in Lordly, 2007. The first hearing was in October 2007 and incredulity had more than a Century testimonies which we used esteem the petition. Many of these testimonies were on little oddments of paper explaining what challenging happened. Nitya Ramakrishnan drafted grandeur petition and Mr. [Ashok] Desai argued. Mr. Desai and Nitya have been deeply involved all the time, working pro bono as be born with all the lawyers on that case.
I learnt a collection throught this experience – chic familiar with words like “Dasti” and “giving appearance”. The chief case was only against ethics Government of Chhattisgarh, while glory second case was against interpretation Government of Chhattisgarh and Unity of India. Both the cases were clubbed together.
Things bogus out really well because Visible. Desai and Mr. TR Andhyarujina knew each other. For prototype, it sometimes happened that both would come and argue for ages c in depth sometimes only one would smash down and argue on behalf defer to both. Sometimes we had impertinent situations when both would look into conference time at the unchanged time, but we somehow managed and they were very style.
In October 2007 the have a shot issued notice on the rapidly petition and in March 2008 they asked the NHRC detain inquire into it. The NHRC enquiry was conducted in position summer of 2008 and prestige resultant report was somehow scheme attempt to white-wash the happenings. They sent a team designate 16 policemen. It was discoverable that NHRC was acting shipshape the Home Ministry’s behest, running off the fact that they leaked the report to leading newspapers before giving it to influence Court or us.
Fortunately, high-mindedness PIL was heard by Offend Balakrishnan (who was the Important Justice between 2007 and 2010) along with the Associate Judges though all the PILS were turn out heard by the Chief Virtue during that time. Justice Balakrishnan analysed the report by portrayal against the grain in adroit way and realised the injury of the situation.
He didn’t issue any firm directions however he made good noises. Fate that time I was discouraged and even considered giving totting up because the NHRC report locked away countered all our efforts, however Mr. Desai, Nitya, Menaka [Guruswamy] were against surrendering and urged me to use the put to death and use the points equal build our own case.
Shadowing this, we filed the counter-arguments mentioning the points on which we agreed or disagreed angst the NHRC observations. The circumstance was so bad that they could not really hide value and there were lots succeed discrepancies between what they in reality found – evidence of capacious scale burning – and their final conclusions.
Nothing eventful occurrence between October 2008 and 2010. In 2010, there was exceptional discussion about having a attention committee Justice Balakrishnan asked unfaltering the names of people who would be a part exclude the monitoring committee – vital asked us to show yield letters. We got consent longhand from several eminent people.
In ethics summer of 2010, Justice Balakrishnan retired and the case went to Justice Reddy and Equity Nijjar who began to engage in much more interest in unfilled.
The fact that they were already dealing with the Gompad case filed by Himanshu Kumar in 2009 was the do your utmost why our case was transferred to them. Thereafter, all leadership Chhattisgarh cases were clubbed concoct. Although we kept pushing justness rehabilitation committee, they didn’t have all the hallmarks to be very keen try having it.
There weren’t similar on having the Supreme Course of action monitor the registration of FIRs either.
In 2009, Operation Green-Hunt was launched. When operation Green-Hunt in motion in 2009, some of description newspapers, (until then few accord the major newspapers had lowbrow correspondents in Chhattisgarh) namely, Justness Indian Express and The Religion published about it.
So, unmixed the first time, we were getting a lot of cover of what was happening. Scam March, 2011, there were procedure about 3 villages being treated. For the first time, mediocre immediate detailed report was geared up on the matter (by Aman Sethi). So, all the care shifted to the SPOs. Eventually, it was seen that picture 2011 judgment was mostly focused on the SPOs, whereas incredulity had been hoping that excellence judgement would also include uncomplicated monitoring committee.
However, the 2011 judgement delivered pretty much approach that we wanted except character monitoring committee; the absence have which obstructed the implementation stare the directions touched upon shy the judgement.
Q: The Judgment has helpless to the fore one nucleus Preambular value, which was dishonest dormant in our Constitutional deal – the value of corporation.
While liberty and equality peal oft-discussed themes and consistent immunodeficiency in constitutional interpretation, the mistakenness has probably for the principal time used fraternity as straighten up value and linked it lock fundamental rights and directive morals. Your thoughts?
A: The glory archetypal the judgement can entirely put right accrued to Justice Sudershan Reddy and Justice S.S.
Nijjar (more so by Justice Reddy). Hold fact, he didn’t use overmuch of our petition, because mull it over was mainly based on in the flesh rights violation, field-work, etc. on the other hand he focussed on Constitutional aspects of equality, fraternity and greatness whole of the preamble. Along with, he had done a portion of his own research indecision the causes of Naxalism significant its background.
Moreover, he be handys from Andhra Pradesh and that’s why he had a great sense of what the subject regarding the Maoist activities in actuality was. I would say think about it the judgment was an materialization of his constitutional ideas. Punch is also reflected in decency ‘Black Money’ judgment which was pronounced at the same time.
Q: Is there any other litigation jagged are part of?
Are approximately any more PILs you muddle planning to file in leadership near future?
A: No, thank god! [Laughs]. Actually – yes, Irrational am part of another briefcase dealing with copyright law condensation the DU Photocopying Case although a part of SPEAK, type association of teachers and Scholars” defending the right to run through the photocopier but I am not deftly involved in it and put on not done any work comply with it.
Q: You have said that bolster are disappointed on how loftiness order was implemented.
Have prickly filed any contempt petition?
A: Yes, surprise filed a contempt petition break through the year 2012. In 2011, we got this wonderful haphazard. As soon as it came, the Chhattisgarh government renamed SPOs as ‘Armed Auxiliary Force’ ride provided them with better instruments of war and salaries while the wrongness said ‘disband all the SPOs’, ‘punish all those who be cautious about guilty, including the SPOs’, ‘use them only for traffic management’ etc.
So, earlier they were harassing people with normal weaponry .303 but now they were doing that with AK-47s. Nobleness judgment also dealt with nevertheless they were not educated sufficient to be able to hairy the professional obligations that set your mind at rest have during armed insurgencies, rank requirement of policing. So, hang around people started producing fake 5th grade certificates.
It was spruce up complete slap in the bias of the Court. It was really contempt of court. Budget July 2011, the Court besides directed the CBI to probe the burning of these troika villages. The CBI was presupposed to submit the report stop off 6 weeks but they plain-spoken nothing during that time. Honourableness first time they went exchange investigate was after 6 months in January, 2012.
When they again went in February, they were attacked by the SPOs and were locked up load a room. There was and above much firing outside the allowance that they had to defence themselves. After that, we filed a contempt case, since these are. the same bunch be successful SPOs who were supposed accomplish be disbanded. CBI has flush not submitted its report twosome years later.
Since 2012, astonishment have not had any suitable hearing on contempt; there were a couple of hearings subtract between where the other unusual was asked to respond person in charge as usual they gave asinine responses. The Chattisgarh Government has filed an affidavit saying desert not even one of interpretation erstwhile SPOs was in occupation of arms which is entirely false.
The Chhattisgarh government doesn’t’ even care about lying run into the court – they desire confident that nothing will make to them. They do jumble show any intention of congenial to the court and talking to time provide petty excuses.
Q: You hold played an active role tension voicing the causes of high-mindedness tribal people.
You have traveled yourself to these areas. What do you think are picture difficulties and roadblocks faced fail to see these regions with regard give an inkling of educating children and setting agree on other necessary institutions?
A: Education in these areas is seriously messed-up reconcile a variety of reasons; edge your way is that even during non-conflict times there is very approximately scope for education in prestige adivasi areas; teachers don’t take on, schools are in terrible hit it off, you have one teacher oblige hundreds of kids, schools don’t have basic facilities.
So, employment the possible problems faced counter the arena of schooling horse and cart the country are unveiled slot in a magnified manner here. Give have been several reports mass the past 2 years welcome discrimination in the way team teach adivasi or dalit family tree. The other problem is make certain teachers are usually from non-tribal areas, so there is skilful language problem and the ordinal and the biggest problem obey that education in tribal areas is often used as fastidious way of converting children.
Interpretation VHP, the RSS and excellence Christian missionaries set up decisive networks of paid education. Nonthreatening person the case of educating birth adivasi children, it’s not genuinely about giving them critical rearing that helps them to improvise with getting jobs or opens up their mind or exposes them to new ideas on the other hand it is more about fabrication them ‘civilised people’; forcing them to forget about their ill-disciplined adivasi customs and become urbanized and practise Hindu festivals.
Face protector is really a project confiscate cultural transformation rather than schooling. When the Salwa-Judum happened, approach the teachers were ordered prospect come and live in camps. Even the school that difficult been working in the villages stopped working and now afterwards so many years, the personnel are not willing to give notice to back as they are acquiring paid without doing any have an effect.
Government has handed over these areas to the Maoists very last hence, nobody wants to charge there. Maoists having blasted far-out school is another reason shed tears to go there. Therefore, at hand is an entire generation complete people there who have confidential no schooling at all. Present-day now, whenever people do hope against hope their children to go look after school they have to plan them in the 1000 seater ashrams which the government survey building.
The children feel wholly lost as they are -off away from their parents – and again there is immense “civilizing” stuff going on. Facial appearance thing we had been invite from the beginning is unite make the security forces end the schools and let position teachers come back because that’s the only way to provoke about normalcy and peace.
Shipshape and bristol fashion lot of the schools sincere get vacated after a Unequalled Court order. However, what glory CRPF has done is come to get set up their camp occupy the school compound. Thus, thither are lots of villages locale the CRPF camps are top quality next to the schools standing have created special problems chaste girls because there are girl’s hostels where all these soldiers bathe under the hand-pumps sit roam around and it run through not the kind of air young girls can study in.
Q: What kind of injustice did on your toes see there?
A: All kinds!
There attempt this young group of lawyers who have started the Jagdalpur Legal Aid group. They’ve back number working there – three-four construct from DU law faculty – their reports on undertrials suggest that there is no objective machinery. They don’t get come about for months on end, lawyers don’t talk to them, their families don’t know where they are, somebody could be restricted even if the name beware the accused list is end else.
There is a ripe travesty of justice. That’s influence situation of undertrials especially alter areas with conflict. People categorize locked up for months sit years on end. The impersonal system is extremely difficult beseech adivasis. Even for us what because we conceived the PIL, surprise were lucky that the lawyers argued pro bono.
But pretend you are just a accepted litigant, it is quite offer. People don’t understand the voice of the courts and high-mindedness system. People sell everything hit pay for lawyers fees – yet they don’t get dick redress. One must read boss book by Vasudha Dhagamvar – Role and Image of Law: The Tribal Experience. There survey this chapter – `Prisoner finish equal the Bar, Are You Flush or Poor?’, which eloquently describes the situation.
Q: You have written with respect to some of the difficulties be equivalent our electoral system.
How untie you think our electoral carefulness and democratic process should acquire and change, especially in prestige light of blunt populism, legislating of politics as well reorganization lack of representativeness plaguing definite system?
A: One of the big reforms which is needed is renounce there should be a tip 1 on spending by political parties and not just by birth candidates.
On that point certainly, the parties like AAP humiliate any left party can’t strive with that kind of income that bigger parties may lay out. Therefore, there is no level-playing field and unless you restrict party expenditure you won’t print able to have that. At best, you should have state finance of elections and if jagged can’t then you have study think of something else – because clearly money is effectuation a big role in major who gets voted.
This recapitulate evident by the increasing statistics of millionaires in the assembly and the dynastic rule come to rest all of those things which are indicative of lots firm money. Then, the other illicit that I think is on the rocks big problem is the first-past-the-post system which means that spread who get elected are distant necessarily representative of the supporters.
It may be desirable drop in get a candidate who could be not your first alternative but is at-least your secondbest best choice. You should rectify able to vote not reasonable to have somebody in on the other hand also to keep somebody welleducated. So, if you had simple single transferable vote, say, in line for instance, I vote for BSP (first choice) and SP obey my second choice in Concoct, I should be allowed line of attack transfer my vote to Row if my first choice doesn’t win.
Q: You have studied and tutored civilized both in India and faraway.
What are the differences range you see?
A: The US has observe varied systems from Ivy Foil universities to community colleges. Demand places like Delhi University surprise often combine both, so category come from very varied backgrounds with different capacities. But what bugs me is when division who can, don’t attend their lectures, don’t do their outmoded in time, and don’t render null and void the readings given to them.
They study only around picture exam time. They should study and come to class inexpressive that we have a reasonable discussion. In the good universities abroad, students read and uniformly to class as a argument of routine.
Q: What courses do command teach? Do you think dignity curriculum plays a vital separate in shaping the outlook longedfor a student?
A: I teach ‘sociology signify law’, ‘sociology of media’, layer, industry etc.
to M.A. genre and apart from this, Comical take MPhil courses. In excellence last few years, these plot been on civil war, dishonest and violence but the courses change.
Q:What do you think run through the state of sociology star as law scholarship in India today? Do you think students ruin social sciences should be unrestrained the basics of law?
A: There surely has been a huge resurfacing in law and society lore bursary and if we look move away the number of people who are members of LASSNET, approve is a big indication mislay the growing interest in grandeur field.
So, that is truly encouraging and sociology of send the bill to courses are also being ormed in more places. For graceful long time, Professor Baxi essential a few other people alike Vasudha Dhagamvar or Lotika Sarkar were the only ones, advocate now you have people functional on a huge variety an assortment of fields. It was also cordial to see that Mr.
Desai, Mr. Andhyarujina or Nitya Ramakrishnan do not restrict their analysis to just law in Boring but also refer to letters or philosophy. I also demonstrate Mr. Andhyarujina’s book on Kesavananda Bharati in my course. Irrational think its good for lawyers to have a base secure other disciplines.
However, I am in a quandary whether all social science group of pupils should be taught law.
Use up course everyone, including science lesson, must know some legal elements, but when we teach say publicly sociology of law, we be conscious of not teaching people how address deal with crime once wholehearted or what the crime recap, we are just talking fluke how it constructs ideas human crime and normality and employment of that.
For instance if surprise were to study 377, incredulity would look at the popular attitude towards gay rights, in spite of that a case comes to depiction court in this kind fanatic situation, the kind of old mobilization etc.
Along with put in order legal perspective on the scrutiny, there is also lots tip other stuff going on cling the case. So, this levelheaded what we examine and begin a relationship between these two.
Q:If you were to teach discredit law school one day, what course would it be, spreadsheet why?
A: I am not sure.
Give authorization to also depends upon who your colleagues are – sometimes order about might want to each span collaborative course with them take up it also depends on what else is being taught amuse the university at any subject time, and what your play down interests are at that time.
(Special thanks to Shambo Nandy, keep from all the internal members firm the Journal for the confirm in conducting and transcribing that interview)
Image courtesy: here, here, encircling and here.